Don’t make me tell you twice: Stop using fanart you didn’t draw on your anime blog
August 4th, 2009 at 20:12:44 by wahAnime bloggers, anime bloggers. Why must we always have these discussions? Is too hard for you guys to operate utilizing normal, human, common sense? I mean, I guess it isn’t entirely your fault if you’re a stupid person who can’t write about Japanese animation worth a shit, but what images you post onto your internet weblog is fully under your control, and that’s the issue I wish to address today.
Have you children ever heard of Online Fanarts Protection? OFP is a kind of rule set down by anime fandom regarding the use of fanart on internet websites. What they’re asking of you people is quite simple–don’t use the images they spent hours making without their permission! That’s all! Of course, if you’re an anime blogger and not aware of this rule, that’s fine; but now that you know, please take it into consideration. I myself wasn’t aware of this until about three years ago, which is why there is not-drawn-by-me-fanart in some of my older entries. But I don’t do that anymore. I’ve learned. I’m respecting their simple request.
Now, what they’re asking isn’t entirely unreasonable–basically, if you want to use a piece of art, contact the artist before doing so. However, in this fast-paced Web 3.0 world of today, we may not have time for that. Here’s an alternative–if you really want to use a piece of artwork, credit the artist and link to their site underneath it, as opposed to writing some awful, unfunny one-liner. While it’s not really what they’re asking of you, it’s better than “author unknown”, and a fair compromise. To make it even better, include a Japanese section (titled 日本語, that means “Japanese” in Japanese) on your blog where you explain in Japanese the usage of fanart on your blog, and make it clear that you will take images down without argument if asked.
Why is this important? We’re all a community. All around the world. As such, we must respect other people’s wishes, especially when it comes to creative properties that they’ve toiled for hours–sometimes days–over. Your use of fanart that’s not yours in your blog post is not transforming and giving that work new meaning–it’s just theft. You have no business using that artwork. The least you could do is–as I mentioned before–credit the artist.
I’m not saying you shouldn’t use images at all in your blog. Hell, I use a lot myself. But my images are either photos I take, or official images. While using official images without permission isn’t okay, they’re made for wide distribution, so as long as you’re not charging people to look at them, it’s not an entirely bad thing to have screenshots and such on your blog.
I don’t expect that the world will be changed with this post, but I’d like all who are reading to take this into consideration. We’re all in the same global community, so don’t betray your fellow fans around the world by stealing their artwork. It’s just plain rude, inconsiderate, and another reason why Japanese fans think English-speaking fans are “human trash.”
That’s an actual quote, by the way.
August 4th, 2009 at 20:33:20
Well I’m glad you’ve decided to try and put this in a way that isn’t totally ass-backwards and stupid.
I understand the desire to be credited, and, in fact, if I know the name of a fanartist, I’d more than love to credit their work. I have a ‘Artist highlights’ section on my blog where I actually seek Japanese artists and try to share their works with an American audience and show them how they can find more work by that artist.
But I shouldn’t have to feel guilty about using a fanart and not crediting the artist, especially if I have no way of figuring out who the artist is. I just decided I wanted to make a Touhou post and have a picture of Tewi in it. I did a quick image search, and I found this, which I really liked: http://gelbooru.com/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=554287 however from this page I am given no information about who drew this image. Now, are you telling me I’m not allowed to use this image, which perfectly accentuates the subject matter of my post, because I can’t figure out who the illustrator is? Fuck that.
If you put your fanart on the internet, it really is fair game to whoever finds it. Yeah, it’d be nice if they knew who you are and credited you for it, but it’s nothing to cry over if they don’t. Just start signing your fucking images.
August 4th, 2009 at 20:39:31
Hi. You raise notable points in your post, and I agree with you that it is quite rude to knowingly violate the creators’ rights in reposting images, at the very least without credit. Respecting other people’s creations is important in building and keeping trust between fans.
I also thought, however, it would be worthwhile to mention fair-use of copyrighted images. In the US and Canada, at least, a blogger for instance could post a low-resolution image of another person’s creation, and with credit (and probably a link to the creator’s site) this is actually legal. Similarly for screenshots/artwork from an official source, low-quality versions are acceptable with credit. There are more details, such as the quantity of screenshots, which should be minimized and only used insofar as is needed for an example or to prove a point. Wikipedia has some more details on fair use, although its site policies limit their use even further beyond what law dictates.
Also, I’m not a lawyer, so anyone should please double-check their local copyright laws regarding fair use if they wish to use it.
August 4th, 2009 at 20:44:37
@DigitalBoy
http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=5476373
There, a source for the image as well as the ability to contact the artist. Ball’s in your court now.
August 4th, 2009 at 20:47:01
@bonertown: cool, now do that for ever sourceless piece of fanart on the internet.
August 4th, 2009 at 20:51:27
ooof…I didn’t know there was such a rule. I suppose I better start doing that. I know the annoyance of writing a season preview only to find it on some forum with no link back to the site.
August 4th, 2009 at 20:53:44
“are you telling me I’m not allowed to use this image”
That’s right, you’re not. Legally, that is. One of the most commonly heard complaints of Japanese creators regarding overseas fans is that they have no respect for 著作権 (author’s rights), and the Danbooru-4chan-sankaku ideology certainly doesn’t help fixing that reputation.
If you’re going to look for fan-made illustrations, why not look for them on Pixiv rather than a pirate site? It even makes it easy to drop a line to the artist asking whether it’s ok to do so.
August 4th, 2009 at 20:59:53
@mt-i: You must have missed the fair use comment a little bit above, and anyway, maybe because gee I can’t fucking read Japanese?
August 4th, 2009 at 21:12:33
I don’t think it’s a lot to ask people to give credit to the original artists, but at the same time it’s been going on so long I, personally, don’t expect it to change, no matter what Online Petitions, rants, or Protection Acts anyone tries.
With sites like Danbooru, AnimeSuki’s Forum(The image threads, obviously), and such, it’s already pretty bad, singling out Anime blogs is just looking at part of the problem.
When these images get put on the internet, like everything else, it’s really fair game. That’s just how it is. It goes from the original site, to another, to another, to another, and eventually loses it’s information occasionally.
I can’t tell you how many pictures I’ve looked at on Danbooru that don’t have an artist tagged. Sometimes people just don’t know. This is also, I suppose, a Negative of the whole image sharing thing, but once again, it’s what happens.
When it comes to Blogs, though, I do agree that the Artists should be mentioned, if the artist is known.
That OFP link saying “Whenever somebody says ‘Author Unknown’ it means ‘I stole it” is pretty unfair. Not everybody saves images and files them by Artist.
I personally have a folder for, say, only Code Geass images.
I know the artists behind a few of the images, but the majority of them I’ve either forgotten over time, or never knew in the first place since their names weren’t listed on Danbooru, AnimeSuki, Sankaku Complex, etc.
And telling everyone to contact the original author would be nice, but, impractical.
Not everyone knows Japanese, and not every Japanese artist knows English.
It’s just far more hastle than anyone wants to deal with. I wouldn’t be surprised if a few “Leechers” have done this with Artists(Music, Video, Fanart, or otherwise), only to annoy the artist.
They complain about it not happening, or happening enough, but for some of these really popular artists, I don’t believe they’d want to answer some Fan-Gush email asking “Can I use your picture in my entry header? I think the picture is funny!” everytime someone wants to use an image.
Once again, I’ll say that I don’t think it’s too much to ask that the artists get credit. They should.
But someone shouldn’t be condemned for either not knowing the artist, or not giving it any thought.
This happens with everything, it’s just how the internet works. Things aren’t always 100% clear, people aren’t always thoughtful, and people have their different views on everything.
I just think this is silly to make a big deal about.
The so called “thieves” that do this won’t care if the artists think “The americans are Human Trash!”
They’ll probably just shake it off as typical Japanese Xenophobia.
The only time I get mad about this is someone tracing artwork, or claiming it as their own.
Posting an image without a direct link to the original artists site just doesn’t rate up there on my, or it seems, many other peoples scales of what one can do to “disgrace” an artist.
Hell.
SIGN the damn pictures!
That used to be enough for both sides. Those getting the image knew who did it and would google their name, or site, and the artist doesn’t have to worry about being ripped off(since the assholes that’d photoshop the name out are far lesser in number than those who wouldn’t.)
Anyway, that’s enough from me. Never posted here before, but’ve been reading the comic and blog for a few years. Keep it up. Less srsbsns and more funny.
And I understand you’re generally mad about this, but, saying “Have you Children heard of OFP” does more against you, than it does good for your cause.
Chill, my brother.
Plus. I’d like to think the people who read this, being your Readers, are level-headed about this.
WOAH. When I started typing there were no replies. Jesus..
… I wonder if there’s a character limit..
August 4th, 2009 at 21:13:34
@digitalboy: Fair use doesn’t extend to uncited material, ever (if you’re not going to credit the author, you cannot claim fair use in any situation). And I’m not an IP lawyer, but it is also highly dubious that illustrating a blog post on a marginally related topic fulfills the purpose-and-character criterium of fair use (you’re not commenting the work itself, or using it on its own for transformative purposes).
And there are countless howto guides to Pixiv on the American Internet. You can choose to be lazy, ignore the legitimate requests of artists and participate in giving us overseas fans a bad name, but it’s not “fair game” as you claim.
August 4th, 2009 at 21:19:30
>>iving us overseas fans a bad name
As I said to WAH on Twitter when we discussed this before he posted, I of course do not mind getting us a bad name because I can’t fulfill the ridiculous requests of the Japanese. Campbell just put it way better than I could.
August 4th, 2009 at 21:22:00
My post being TL;DR can be summed up by “What Digitalboy said” I guess, apologies for not reading it first.
And, mt-i, not to butt in, but it’s not signing up to Pixiv that’s a problem, it’s being able to communicate with the artist. The only artist I’ve seen reply to English comments that comes to mind is Rebis Dungeon.
August 4th, 2009 at 21:23:48
Oh, and let’s not forget this important bit: not every piece of art is on pixiv, not every artist has a pixiv account, and most of all, not every artist gives a shit about this petition.
August 4th, 2009 at 21:38:49
Hey.
I do my best to ask permissions for art I use, and where I have failed, I usually put links to the author.
Now, since I’m way too lazy to look up links and asking strangers, I use pics whose artists and creators I know have given me explicit permission, with appropriate links.
Of course, doing so is the RIGHT THING TO DO. And it’s a lot nicer in the long run.
I’ll refrain from saying something about English-speaking fans being lower than low because such comparisons only reflect how low their status in polite Japanese society really is. When you consider that even the most hardcore of Trekkies, D&D nerds, WoW addicts and even dem fucking furries (not totally serial here) get some grudging respect from polite Western society just because they dare to be different. In Japan, they get zero respect, are roundly shunned, and ignored if some Japanese politician isn’t formulating plans to kick them out of Akiba or COURTING THEIR VOTES.
Not every artist may care about the OFP, digitalboy, but it sure is very nice to receive a positive email every now and then. Unless you have forgotten about being a human being. Then I have no choice but to show pity, because you’re even worse than a rabid 4channer.
August 4th, 2009 at 21:44:20
@DrmChsr0: I could write a whole rant on the defectiveness of morals and how they are an incredibly shitty argument, but I think the fact that we are debating this on a site written by a guy who tries to justify being a lolicon is proof enough.
August 4th, 2009 at 21:49:15
digitalboy: Wouldn’t I wanna debate on that.
Hey, at least I’m not the guy insulting other people on the sly. Because that would be MEAN.
Wink Wink Nudge Nudge.
August 4th, 2009 at 21:52:20
@drmchsr0: I am of course not trying to insult WAH, because I support his views that lolicon is okay, I just think it’s silly that he’s going to argue against the morals of society and then try to force a society’s morals down our throats.
And also, another reply to your first comment, since when do we need to be validated by the Japanese fanbase? Who the fuck cares what they think of our country? Contrary to what WAH wants to think, the Japanese aren’t superior to us, and we don’t need to strive to be like them. Every otakudom has it’s own flaws.
August 4th, 2009 at 21:54:31
@digitalboy
You know, given enough time, resources and help, it’s possible to do that for every piece of fanart that doesn’t have a credited artist. But that’s dumb, because even with fanart that has credited artists, people are going to just take the images anyway without bothering to ask or credit properly. They’re certainly not going to take the time to do the research themselves.
And that’s the real underlying issue at hand here: people not giving a shit as to how the artist feels. Certainly, not all of them will mind, but for those that do, is it too much to ask to at least give them that respect for their effort of creating it, and respecting their wishes as to how their art is used?
Actually, don’t answer that. I know how this ends.
August 4th, 2009 at 22:04:20
@bonertown: I think the ‘real underlying issue at hand’ is that most people wouldn’t even realize this was a problem at all, much less not giving a shit. You make it sound like people maliciously make a decision to not research an artist when most people probably use these images completely mindlessly. And in that regard, I think it’s fine to make a post saying ‘hey guys, you should try checking out the artist and trying to credit them’ but it gets stupid when you demand that everyone absolutely track down and ask the artist personally in another fucking language to let you toss an image into a post. And the issue I have is as much that people actually give a shit about this.
August 4th, 2009 at 22:05:17
Rather than going to danbooru to search for images nowadays, I just go to pixiv first. Problem solved.
(The more pernicious problem, to me, is Sankaku Complex where the images are used as the entire purpose to visit the site, so you end up seeing this unsourced pictures there rather than in a context where they are associated with the artist. It’s like an Ebaum’s World for anime.)
August 4th, 2009 at 22:08:02
And mind you, part of the reason I say this is because if I had drawn a picture, and I saw it on a Japanese blog, i’d just be fucking excited that people were actually seeing my artwork, and no less in a whole other country! There’s a fundamental difference in philosophy between myself and the people wanting you to ask permission, and that’s why I call bullshit on the operation altogether, because this isn’t even something that should be obvious, it’s a matter of certain peoples’ opinion.
August 4th, 2009 at 22:12:20
It’s not about morals, it’s about respect for your fellow fan. At this point it’s not even about how much cooler Japanese fans are than US fans, it’s just about not being a dick towards the other party.
I acknowledged that people may not know. But now that (the people who have read this) know about it, I’d be nice if they’d comply with the wishes of these people. They went out of their way to write in a language that’s way more difficult than Japanese to tell us how much using their art pisses them off, so the least we could do is acquiesce a little.
I realize the OFP site has not been updated for three years, but it’s still relevant.
Also, as far as imageboards go, I’m a bit less bothered by that. The 2chan/4chan environment does encourage discussion, and danbooru does the same to some extent. It’s still dirty, but it doesn’t really grind my gears as much as this does.
Also, it’s very easy to find a source for any image these days–I can just post the thing to twitter or IRC and get 5 to 10 responses in about a minute or so.
August 4th, 2009 at 22:17:57
@wah: that’s all fine and good, but if you wanted us to ‘acquiesce a little’ say that in your opening post and not ‘hey, here’s the rules the japanese set, you are a failure if you don’t follow them’. It’s perfectly reasonable to kindly ask people to TRY and get permission, but if you go about it in such a dick way it comes across like you’re being unreasonable.
I’d really love it if you could make this knowledge of trying to find an author as public as possible, and I’ll even support it, just put it forth in a reasonable way and don’t act like a fucking douchebag.
August 4th, 2009 at 22:19:48
Isn’t fanart violating the rights of the copyright holders? Or is there some legal hole that makes it right to draw, let’s say, some Hachikuji snail guro porn without having to ask permision to Nisioisin, Vofan, Poyoyon Rock…?
Because then there would be some double standards in practice…
August 4th, 2009 at 22:23:09
I said that a perfectly fine way to meet them half way is to the credit the artist then write a disclaimer in Japanese on your blog regarding the use of fanart on your blog. It’s not that difficult. Don’t know Japanese? Find a friend who does. I have tons.
I didn’t say you’re an awful person if you don’t go out of your way to contact the artist. It would be preferable, though.
And it’s common sense to just ask people what the source is if you don’t know it. In this age of Web 2.0 information really is at your fingertips.
>>bpop
My point isn’t about legality. I break the law all the time. I just did right now when I downloaded this Shin Mazinger episode. I keep stressing (people clearly can’t read) that’s it’s about R E S P E C T.
August 4th, 2009 at 22:30:01
Well, then, let’s just forget about legal stuff… What kind of respect is there if you don’t ask permission to make your snail porn?
August 4th, 2009 at 22:31:53
>>>I didn’t say you’re an awful person if you don’t go out of your way to contact the artist.
>>>hey don’t make sense to your simplistic American mind?
>>>It’s pretty hilarious how you fail to realize the depth of your ignorance and lack of regard for people who are not you
>>>isn’t that just fucking rude?
>>>don’t betray your fellow fans
>>>t’s just plain rude, inconsiderate, and another reason why Japanese fans think English-speaking fans are “human trash.”
You heavily imply it, though. But that’s kind of beside the point (except the point that you should try being less of an ass).
But anyway, I still think it’s just a tad unreasonable to expect that we’ll always be able to find the artist, though as you do point out, it shouldn’t always be difficult. I won’t be able to always find the artist and link to their profile. Even when I found work by the artist ‘sena’ on gelbooru, I couldn’t find ‘sena’ on pixiv at all and I couldn’t find any of her work either, so I settled for just the name. I think within the bounds of reasonability, we should go as far as we can for a piece, but shouldn’t be expected to not use the piece if we can find less than ‘enough.’
August 4th, 2009 at 22:37:08
Thank you for writing this post. I was about to write it myself when I saw your tweet. I feel so guilty now that I’m a member of pixiv, for ever using danbooru for images. BUt that was back when I was a noob anime blogger – I don’t take random pics nowdays from there. Actually if I take anything, it’s from Pixiv, and I do link back to either the pixiv profile or the artist’s site in their profile. It annoys me to no end seeing people put shit into their blog posts with no links, no credits at all.
Maybe I’ll write a post and just link to here to spread the word. It really annoys me too.
August 4th, 2009 at 22:46:58
[...] Wah already wrote the post on it, so I’m just adding fuel to the fire in hopes to spead the message: [...]
August 4th, 2009 at 22:56:01
I think OFP is the laughing stock of the internets. Also, as someone just said, fanart are copyright violations as well unless they’ve gotten permission from the rights holders. I think for the average internet guy, it’s safe to ignore both of these simply because they’re so powerless and irrelevant today.
Taking without attribution generally is where the bad blood flows. It’s not always possible, as digitalboy says, but it’s definitely a nice thing to go that extra mile and link to someone’s pixiv or homepage, no matter where you find a picture.
Also I just want to say that fair use defense can apply (in the US) even if you do not accredit, but it depends on the specifics of the case. There are not many categorical rules when it comes to determining fair use. Also, take legal advices from non-lawyers (and lawyers!) at your own risk.
But that’s just the beginning. I think it’s important to consider how you use fanart on your site:
1. is it part of your attractive site design? Yes? Accredit and I’d even say go and ask for permission first. Why? Because it’s a part of your site’s identity, and if you run ads, it directly affects that. Making money with other people’s fanart is a sure fire way to rub them the wrong way. It’s not about legality but about being a good fan, or whatever WAH hangs his e-penis on. Once someone drags “law” into this discussion, that someone fails IMO.
2. is it just like an OP image? Accredit is probably the most you can do. If you go further and crop and use only a part of it? Even better. The less “taking” the better.
3. always, IMO, follow requests to accredit or for take-downs. If there’s some reason that you can’t accredit or take something down, be very polite and discuss this even if the other person may talk like an asshole. Generally speaking people don’t go around and ask things to be taken down, and accreditation is just another word for link love, and link love is good for blogs.
4. And do likewise for other people who take your content, may it be words or pictures or whatever.
If you do all this, you’ll be fine.
August 4th, 2009 at 23:12:10
If I have the source of the image, e.g. the artist’s Pixiv page, I credit it! But looking for post illustrations on sites like danbooru very often gives you a good image, but no source at all. (And looking for post illustrations on danbooru and similar services is sadly a lot more effecient because of the great tagging system)
So… can you give me the text about getting images down without argument in Japanese? (I can’t Japanese yet, that’s why)
August 4th, 2009 at 23:28:20
Pixiv has a very great tagging system too >_> If you don’t know Japanese enough to use it, then you shouldn’t be taking JAPANESE ARTISTS WORK in the first place.
August 4th, 2009 at 23:36:54
Didn’t really do this as much before because of stupid danbooru. But I’ll be more conscious now. Not seeing much people do the same. Time to set the standard.
August 5th, 2009 at 00:26:06
@Hinano: No comments. If the source is not stated, how can I know that it’s done by a Japanese artist?
Overall, you sound mean. I’m learning Japanese and practice on pixiv by trying to read something (not speaking about understanding), and still, danbooru is better in terms ‘effeciency’. I didn’t said it’s better in general.
And pixiv, I believe, has not so many no-real-life people who look through the pictures and tag them like there’s no tomorrow. Artists themselves sometimes don’t tag their works properly, good example for that is me.
August 5th, 2009 at 00:32:04
Aaahhh.. Come on Hinano, really? Just because someone can’t read Japanese means they shouldn’t download images from Japanese artists? Art is one of the mediums that’s supposed to be universal, something you don’t need to know any language to enjoy.
I have plenty of Venetian Art. Physical, and on my computer. But I don’t speak Italian.
I’d hate to think I’m breaking some unknown rule, and have to give it all back.
But I guess I get what you mean, “look, don’t touch” works well here, I guess.
-
It’s interesting, how much this riles some people. It’s funny and insane at the same time.
I’m not an Artist, so I guess I’m outside of this whole thing, but I still can’t help but feel it’s overblown.
Respect is a hard thing to judge.
Some people care, some don’t. That’s how it will always be, sadly.
I’m passionate about Music. But the thing is, I hate it when Artists Sample other Artists’ pieces.
I view Fanart in the same light. I don’t view it as highly as an Original piece of music, or an Original picture of Original characters.
I appreciate their work on the Fanart. Making the piece, and making it available.
However.
If the Artists name isn’t already present with the piece, I’m not gonna spend time slaving over search engines or joining a community solely for that purpose.
I guess I’m lazy, that’s my problem.
I think if you use it on your site, you -should- find that information. But, you don’t -have- to.
It may piss of the artist when s/he gets wind of it, or it may rub your own community the wrong way. But that’s for the person in question to weigh.
Really, I just feel this emotion could be better aimed at something else, or dropped all together.
Omo said on Hinano and JP’s blog that “it has more to do with how it’s used.”
Which really sums all of it up.
I feel it’s a waste to get angry over people, who are not purposely trying to anger anyone, for using images for Entry-Headers or whatever.
I think it’d reflect better, and mean a lot more, if it was focused on people editing the images for Forum Signatures, and banners, claiming the work as their own, or tracing over another person piece of work.
Hell, single people out. Play Internet Police. People might realize it’s something to be thought about.
But I guess that doesn’t really matter. The matter at hand is what it is.
And finally, though. Pixiv vs Danbooru.
Danbooru is much more accessible than Pixiv is. It’s already in English, and you don’t need to find a guide to sign up.
Pixiv would do good to make the site English accessible. That would clear up quite a bit of these type of problems, I imagine.
What good is seeing the Artists names in Kanji if I have no idea how to Translate it?
August 5th, 2009 at 01:09:42
This is obviously easier to consider when we aren’t talking about the internet, but isn’t it always the case that one should not participate (and I’m using that term broadly) in any community (and I’m using that term broadly as well) unless they are aware of the social decorum?
August 5th, 2009 at 01:11:17
(Also, I’ll leave it to WAH to make a comment about “Americans think they can barge in wherever they want and do whatever they want and everyone else just has to deal with it and now you understand why everyone hates you.”)
August 5th, 2009 at 01:18:34
I think anyone who steals artwork for their blog should just write “I am human trash” in Japanese and place it prominently in their sidebar, to remind themselves and the artists who is the superior person.
August 5th, 2009 at 01:44:07
Lol, this thread becomes more and more off-topic. Now we are criticising the Americans.
August 5th, 2009 at 01:45:39
@Shii Why exactly in Japanese? Are only the Japanese drawing things? It should stand in English, I think, since everybody can English at least that much.
August 5th, 2009 at 01:48:52
Im talking about shit like this
http://greendaysfinest.deviantart.com/art/Shugo-Chara-Wallpaper-132011604
“Credits. I know that the Amu chick was colored by someone here on dA most liekly. I found it through Google though. =\ Teh lineart though, after a bit of digging, was made by ~coraliangirl, but she’s deleted since. Oh well. The logo is the Shugo Chara logo, but it took FOREVER to cut out… =\ ”
What the fuck kind of credits is this?
August 5th, 2009 at 02:03:49
JP, you have a point. But there doesn’t seem to be a set of rules for these communities.
AnimeSuki, for example, has no rules against it, nor do many of the places where this happens(To be expected, I guess).
And as a whole, it seems those who are defensive about this are in the minority.
(The “Majority” being both the ones who’re jerks about it and those who are just quiet and don’t care/know.)
(And, I’m just guessing by how prominent of a problem this seems to be. I only really visit 3 Anime blogs regularly and stay pretty clear of larger community sites. So for what I know those on the ‘Defensive’ are the majority, and just having problems stamping out the lesser remaining pests.)
So the rules are simply not voiced enough, and just thought to be common Etiquette. A lot of them, however, aren’t educated to this.
Though I guess that’s the problem.
At the same time, it’s not helping that people get too passionate over this, so when they try to ‘spread the knowledge’ they typically do so in a… Mean-Spirited way. Name calling, and such. No one listens when they’re talked to like that.
And as weak as it is to fall back on, we are on the internet.
Even when there are rules, people tend to work their way around them/completely ignore them, thanks to the whole Anonymity thing.
Which is hardly American specific.
Blegh. I guess I just keep going “shit happens.” Not sure I need to keep sounding like a broken record here.
My posts seem entirely too long, aswell. Too much to say, nowhere to say it, haha.
Oh look, more comments. I need to type faster.
Hinano, no idea if that was directed at anyone, but..
That’s the kind of stuff that offends me. She(It is a she? Didn’t check.) took someone elses image, that someone else yet colored, and edited it into her own creations, the wallpaper.
That kind of stuff I can understand some rage towards. Make the wallpaper for yourself, but don’t post it on DeviantArt.
But personally, I’m offended at the ‘Product’ not the Credits given.
As crappy as they were.
At least she tried a little, though.
August 5th, 2009 at 02:10:05
thing is, that is official art. so not only is she completly ignorant of the fact that no one even drew it, but perhaps “someone colored it on DA” could be she stole it from someone else who STOLE it in the first place. it becomes like a chain of stolen works and by the time it gets to her shes like “um heres some credit – to I dunno who”
its the same thing with this whole issue. some guy posts a pic on their blog stolen from danbooru. next someone else may find that pic on google and repost it on their blog going “i found it on google” which completely takes away the fact that maybe this took the japanese artist a few hours even days to draw and post on display…on PIXIV for fellow japanese artists to see – then some jerk put it on danbooru and destroyed this completely.
again its not about copyrights or copylefts, its about common courtesy to the artist.
August 5th, 2009 at 02:17:09
@Hinano Okok, as I already said on your own blog I already agree etc etc. But can you please stop posinting ouut ‘japanese artists’? There are overseas artists in the aniblogo- and general aninetosphere. (I know it’s an unimportant note compared to the main topic but still, you offend me a bit)
August 5th, 2009 at 02:26:50
[...] surfing the web, I found this interesting post about the use of fanart images on Anime Blogs…or not using them at all. There is quite a [...]
August 5th, 2009 at 02:33:58
@Gargron
Let me know if I’ve got your perspective straight: you’re thinking that she’s saying that all fanartists are Japanese? The reason for pointing out the “Japanese” was because there isn’t much communication between the Japanese fans and the English-language fans because of the language barrier, so the English-language fans don’t know that this is how the Japanese ones think about their work.
August 5th, 2009 at 03:02:39
@jpmeyer I must have misunderstood her.
August 5th, 2009 at 03:06:55
[...] no source stated, you don’t need (you can’t actually) credit the artist. But then Wah, Jpmeyer, Hinano and a bunch of other people changed my mind. They awakened my own rage by [...]
August 5th, 2009 at 03:46:19
[...] as charged… So, I read these posts, right, and now I think you should too. They served as a good eye opener and I will try to [...]
August 5th, 2009 at 04:46:59
I try to credit if I know the source and I won’t use if asked not to. However, they should know how the Internet is. People will take stuff.
August 5th, 2009 at 05:21:08
>thing is, that is official art…no one even drew it
Because people don’t draw official art. It magically pops out of the artist’s ass and lands on the page. Wut.
I don’t use fanart too often on my blog, but I’ll happily credit it in the future, because it’s assfuck easy to find out who drew the stuff anyway and I don’t want the beautiful and perfect Japanese people to think lowly of me.
August 5th, 2009 at 05:53:55
frankly, i could care less about the butthurt “artists” who rage over the fact their art is on someone’s blog. i can see how someone crosses the line when they claim it’s their own work when it’s not, but i’ll be damned if i have to turn over ever rock on the internet to find out who drew loli.jpg to satisfy someone’s ego.
i respect these authors by not claiming their work as my own, but i won’t bow down to their every whim because i’m not getting paid to use their art.
if i ever post some fanart and the artist contacts me for removal, i’ll remove it. if they ask for accreditation, i’ll probably do that or remove it if they make themselves seem arrogant.
August 5th, 2009 at 06:02:28
@Jura: “It’s the internet, therefore it’s ok to act like a dick” is not a good line of reasoning. Especially not for the well-being of the Internet.
August 5th, 2009 at 06:10:21
At last someone writes this post!
I’ve been wondering about this issue for a few months now, though (no thanks to commitments irl) I haven’t managed to actually post my thoughts about it. Maybe later. Maybe.
But anyway.
I’m not sure whether I started accrediting web artists as soon as I started blogging, but I sure have been when I formed KK, even though my fellow blogging mates don’t exactly follow the same ideals as I do. Ah well. That said, though…
I believe when an artist posts his work onto the Internet, there’s a common understanding that undoubtedly his/her art will be posted on the Net, and probably without credit, too. It sounds wrong, but that’s how it’s been, seeing as the main problem is that people remain ignorant of the situation, be it intentional or not.
I definitely cannot force my friends to do the same; the best I can do is inform, and see whether they’ll choose to go through with it. If they do, then yay, good for them. If not, well, what can I do.
Maybe that’s all we can do; post about this issue, and hope people start to take notice. I mean, this post alone already spurred four more blogs to follow suit. Maybe with enough blog coverage, everyone who’s someone in the ani-blogosphere will notice too?
Yeah I know, that was optimistic.
I’m not saying I’m perfect; if you go way back into my archives you’ll see missing accreditation here and there (and if you go further you’ll see the blog start to break down). I’ve also used assets from web artists in my theme, and credited in my TL;DR disclaimer. I have a contact form, and with it a policy: if you don’t want your fanart on my site, inform me and I’ll take it down. Simple.
Contact the web artists, you say? Find friends who can speak Japanese to help, you say? Trust me, I spent a few weeks trying to look for Japanese-literate friends to help, and guess what their reply was? “Don’t bother, the Japs don’t take too kindly to people using their stuff”.
Yeah, fat load of help that was.
So, given with the lack of free time that I have (have you seen how late my summer ’09 post is?), I think I’ve done my best. If not, well, screw me then.
August 5th, 2009 at 06:53:10
And in this post we complain about theft in a community (North American anime fans) based around piracy. Wow.
August 5th, 2009 at 07:44:44
@G: Speak for yourself. Not everyone downloads fansubs and other pirated stuff.
August 5th, 2009 at 08:16:20
[...] were some very interesting posts today (and some very hot & spicy discussions, I might add) about the use of fanart in [...]
August 5th, 2009 at 08:38:47
I understand what you’re saying, and it’s a very valid point. Artists should be credited and all that good stuff, but with the language barrier and sites like the *chans, some of us will probably know never who those artists are. Not everyone has friends who speak Japanese, you know.
August 5th, 2009 at 09:52:39
@Hinano
Oh, that’s official art? Thought it looked familiar.
So, yeah, that makes it even worse in my eyes(Mainly because someone made Lineart out of it, which is always used for this kind of stuff. Wallpapers, sig edits, etc).
However, since it is official art, whose toes is this Wallpaper-Making-Chick stepping on?
Yeah, the “Real” Artist who made the image is human too. They deserve credit, and shouldn’t be swept under the rug. But who else should she credit? The one who colored it? Doesn’t deserve it, imo.
But what’s made available will be used.
No matter what form of Diplomacy someone uses, I don’t see someone contacting, say, Satoshi Urushihara everytime they want to make a Lineart out of one of his drawings, or color an uncolored sketch.
Official artists have it rough, in that regard. They’re seldom credited in things like this, even though it’s fairly obvious most of the time what’s official and what isn’t.
But the person who made the Cutout/crop/whatever will still, sadly, likely get more recognition in future uses.
People scanning/posting Magazine Art is pretty bad in my opinion too, as I seldom see anyone list the Magazine it was taken from, or the artist behind it(It’s Anime art, it’s not always obvious) in the first place. But I can’t be overly angry about it, because, regrettably, that’s how it works.
It’s by no means an excuse, or a free pass.
Christ, it doesn’t take long for me to go off on a tangent and change targets entirely.
This is going to sound pretty ignorant.. But..
One final thing I want to say is, I really don’t think any Fandom can get along with a Foreign fandom.
There’s never gonna be total harmony between Fandoms, or Cultures. People will always find something to complain about, and in the process, likely blow it out of proportion.
The Japanese Artists(Some will, some won’t) are never going to view us as upstanding citizens on totally equal footing, no matter how nice we are to them.
(And don’t mistake this as me saying they’re demanding too much. I’m mostly stressing the effect of Cultural Divide)
I see this happen in German communities with English music, I see it happen with Spanish gamers with the Korean.
It’ll never end, no matter how many rage-filled-rants or polite-petitions get cooked up.
It bugs me to see people stress out so much over something that doesn’t warrant it.
But I guess I’m doing the same, in that regard. People will be people.
August 5th, 2009 at 09:57:54
Speaking of blowing things out of proportions, one last thing..
WAH, who said that these people are “Human Trash?”
That(or Those) Artist/s, in my opinion, just lost all credibility and respect. To generalize everyone into doing this purposely, including those who meant no ill feelings by it, and calling them Trash is fucking despicable.
As angry as these artists are, get a god damned grip. It’s not the end of the world.
The Artists art may be good, I’ll respect the art, but thsy Artist doesn’t even deserve thought anymore, in my opinion.
To get so angry that you become Arrogant is something no one should do.
Especially over Fanart on the internet, of all things.
If they can’t be level-headed about it, why should I? Because they say so?
I’m sorry, I don’t care about their opinion if they act like that.
Your friends don’t dance, and if they don’t dance, then they’re no friends of mine, yes?
August 5th, 2009 at 10:33:20
I took that quote from a comment on a Japanese blog post that saw Sanakaku Complex and was like “wow all English speakers are human trash if they visit this site”
Which is true. If you visit Sankaku you are human trash. I just used it because I felt the post wasn’t snooty enough by the end, so I had to round it off with some nice, sexy elitism.
August 5th, 2009 at 11:04:44
I like Shii’s idea. Yeah, human trash \o/
August 5th, 2009 at 11:19:14
[...] Seriously, need I say more? Although I mostly use episode caps, I still make the horrendous mistake of blatantly taking another image without crediting it. Even more unfortunately is the fact that I surf imageboards to do it. People need to start crediting fan artists for their hard work, because obviously fanart can just beat the heck out of the original art sometimes. Either use proper credits or don’t use the picture at all. If ignorant people keep ripping images off of whateverbooru or other places, the above image is the fate of all the fanart, inevitably. OFP, people. [...]
August 5th, 2009 at 11:22:00
[...] serious business. I reiterate this because that’s my bottom line about this debate here and here. It’s easy to misunderstood Hinano, but it’s cute and fun that way. And it’s [...]
August 5th, 2009 at 13:16:21
[...] Mistakes of Youth -Don’t make me tell you twice: Stop using fanart you didn’t draw on your anime… – Minaide! Hitorigoto – Image Boards can go die in a Fire – Anime2 – [...]
August 5th, 2009 at 13:18:54
[...] an interesting column by an anime blogger who had posted up his post, crying out to all bloggers to stop using fanarts without explicit permission from the [...]
August 5th, 2009 at 13:40:11
[...] HAYGAIZ I HAS PERFECT SOLUSHUN TO TEH PROBLEM (?)!!1 [...]
August 5th, 2009 at 16:15:47
Ok so I’m supposed to listen to the request of someone who CLAIMS he doesnt read anime blogs because “they are shit” yet he wants the said anime bloggers to follow some retarded orz rule?
Hell, this is not even about “giving correct” credit when tis due. Its about some raving lunatic tryiing to shove his morals down everyone’s throat.
August 5th, 2009 at 17:40:39
I know I’m new to sites like MOY, Sankaku etc. but… this shit is BASIC. While I don’t think it’s always necessary (or practical) to contact the author before using their work, giving credit is something that should always be done. Even if you don’t think people are at least entitled to being credited for their work (idiocy being a prerequisite for this view), linking to the artist’s site or pixiv profile or whatever is a good way to let readers find art by the same guy if they like it. Win-win. And as omo noted earlier, if the art becomes a part of your site design or some other permanent fixture, getting the author’s permission is a Nice Thing To Do.
Of course, the “Danbooru-4chan-sankaku ideology” can make it hard to locate the author of some art, but at least making an attempt (eg. posting a source request on the site you find it) means if the author turns up asking WhyTF you used their art without credit you can point and say, “I tried!”. Again, a Nice Thing To Do.
The above is null and void if the author actually says, “Yeah, you can take this without asking or giving credit”. Neat guy.
On a semi-related note, I find Uncyclopedia’s 2 Big Rules can be applied to many things, including this one:
1. Be funny and not just stupid.
2. Don’t be a dick.
Taking people’s stuff without giving credit is firmly in the “dick” category.
tl;dr: Give credit if you know the author; try to find the author if you don’t.
August 5th, 2009 at 20:01:32
[...] August 5, 2009 O HAI WAH. [...]
August 5th, 2009 at 21:01:06
[...] wah makes some valid points, but delivers it in typical wah fashion, which polarizes most bloggers to lash out instead of actually listening. I like omo’s take on it, since it’s a moderate view and I agree about link-love (which is something I should be doing more in this blog). [...]
August 5th, 2009 at 21:59:14
[...] are, of course, others, since this is the internet we’re talking about. Information, binaries, images, [...]
August 6th, 2009 at 00:27:03
Here’s my take on this:
Spot on, WAH. SPOT. FUCKING. ON.
One more thing: Can’t find the source of an image? ASK AROUND. You know there’s a /r/ board in 4chan, right? It’s more useful than it may appear. Even if it’s 90% porn all the time, that doesn’t mean you won’t be able to find anyone who can’t, at least, point you in the right direction.
COMMUNICATE. It’s easier than you think.
August 6th, 2009 at 04:56:42
[...] was an explosion on fanart usage, so I’m adding fuel to the fire. For the record, I passed up wildarmshero’s post, and pretty much every other related post. There was simple generation of interest, [...]
August 6th, 2009 at 11:36:20
I’m going to be mad surprised if this isn’t one of your all-time viewed posts. :V
August 6th, 2009 at 12:54:33
[...] This is a topic I’ve intended to write about for a while, but I never imagined that it might cause such [...]
August 6th, 2009 at 18:49:51
[...] now, I happen to see a lot of discussion from spicy to dull regarding the use of fanarts. Here, here, here, here and etcetara. There has been a lot of discussion lately that I’ve been meaning to [...]
August 7th, 2009 at 07:04:40
[...] Mistakes of Youth [...]
August 7th, 2009 at 09:20:51
I’m amused at all the discussion of this. Internets: SRS BSNS!
I’ll have some metabloggery at the usual side blog in response to this.
August 7th, 2009 at 14:05:29
[...] I want to blog about Evangelion, I’d like to use some nice images of Rei in the post. But WAH insists that I can’t use fanart or whatever without crediting. But it’s such work to go through all that trouble for a single [...]
August 8th, 2009 at 11:55:42
[...] Melancholy of Wildarmsheero Wah told you once, he told you twice: his boyfriend’s back and now you’re gonna be in trouble. Hey lie, [...]
August 9th, 2009 at 23:21:11
Well said, WAH.
Saving them for your own viewing pleasure is one thing, but using them as if it was their own content is just something else. Or worse, edited without consent in such a way it becomes exploited for the worse.
August 12th, 2009 at 09:47:12
I’d never heard of most of the stuff mentioned here, but then again, I’m not a blogger of any sort. That said, I’m not an artist either, so I can’t say I really understand how the people who are upset about this feel.
Still, to me, it seems both common courtesy and common sense to at least attribute the works to their creators if at all possible. This has nothing to do with whether Japanese fans or American fans or fans of any other country are better or worse than each other. If you don’t list a source or even request a source so that it can be properly listed, that to me implies that it is art created by the poster, unless I actually know the source already. Plus, it would help people who like the picture an easier time finding more pictures by the same artist. Which makes it win/win (if a little more work for the blogger) as far as I can see.
Personally, after reading through all this, as well as the website WAH linked to, which is much less antagonistic in its approach, I think it would be better to at least try and respect the artists wishes, instead of deciding to make a war out of it.
With that said, I have a question. How does this relate to saving pictures for ease of viewing offline? Especially since as mentioned before, most image sites are horribly sloppy when it comes to listing the artists? I have lots of pictures saved for convenience sake, most of which I have no source info what so ever. Should I research and tag them myself, even if I’m not going to ever repost them online? What would be the best way to try and do that?
August 13th, 2009 at 04:04:16
[...] blog posts about this topic which you may find interesting to read, like those by Fangzhao, Hinano, Wah, [...]
August 18th, 2009 at 02:21:56
wah writ:
My point isn’t about legality. I break the law all the time. I just did right now when I downloaded this Shin Mazinger episode. I keep stressing (people clearly can’t read) that’s it’s about R E S P E C T.
While I do understand where it comes from, I suppose I should also play devils advocate and point out copyright also protects from the making of derivative works. IE: Fanart. Just because the odds of getting sued over it is almost unheard of doesn’t mean it’s strictly against the law – especially if it’s being sold. Do japanese doujin artists over there get permission to draw all the XXX stuff they sell at comiket etc, or are their laws just far more relaxed compared to ours. If they aren’t paying proper respect to the original creators, why are they expecting special treatment?
Remember, devil’s advocate reply here. Yes, I know there’s a difference between drawing something new (Even if it’s of copyrighted characters) and just using an image you found on the web, but when money starts to get involved it actually starts to cross into criminal territory in most countries that use copyright laws.
September 4th, 2009 at 21:52:03
Ippikineko said:
“If you don’t list a source or even request a source so that it can be properly listed, that to me implies that it is art created by the poster,”
Really?
For me, unless a post actually says “I made this” in some way or other, I assume that they didn’t make it. (Unless it’s the journal of an individual artist. Which actually would account for all the journals I follow with any regularity that have art posted in them. Huh. )
September 11th, 2009 at 20:03:05
[...] 4 wah going nuts on Japanese fanarts. Read here. [...]
November 28th, 2009 at 10:06:47
[...] zu dem Zeitpunkt bis ich diesen Blogpost entdeckt [...]