Fansubs
At risk of sounding like Paul “Otaking” Johnson, I’m going to go off on a fansub rant.
First of all, I recognize that fansubbing is a free service that fans do voluntarily for the good of the fandom. However, I also believe that people are obligated to conduct themselves in an intelligent manner at all times (even when being stupid!) and there are a number of fansubs hitting the pipes that are just totally retarded.
To be honest, I’m happy with a lot of fansubs and fansub groups now-a-days. Across all the shows I’ve been watching this season, I rarely find myself punching the wall in frustration over a stupid decision a fansubber made. Most groups are doing away with horrid karaoke effects, and translation work across the board is acceptable to great. However, things still pop up here and there that rekindle my rage for some fansubbers.
I didn’t want to name any names, but I guess I have to. When I first started on ChäoS;HEAd, I got a sub by some group called Dark Rebirth. In past seasons I was wary of new groups, but lately newcomers to the scene have generally been good, so I downloaded their release with little worry. I turned off the show six minutes in. The translation read as if the person writing it didn’t know English. And they probably didn’t.
If you don’t know English, don’t translate something into English. You’re only making a damn fool of yourself, and no one will care about your dumb as shit release. Now, if your translator is not an English speaker, that’s fine. However, find someone who is to edit your script. When I was working on Kojika scans for a period of time, this is how we operated. A non-native English speaker who was decent at Japanese would translate the script, then an American would edit it. This worked great! I don’t see why these “Dark Rebirth” morons couldn’t find some American to edit their script. There’s plenty of them out there! I would have done it, even.
Of course if you were to say, walk out on any street in America, you’ll notice that most Americans themselves can’t speak their own language for shit. This terrible, terrible truth bleeds into fansub translations in the form of poor sentence structure and bad wording. It’s quite sad when I have to rewind and pause a show just to parse a poorly written sentence. I’ve edited awkward translations before, and while it does take doing, it is possible to take a weird English translation and have it read as nicely flowing conversational English. That said, if the Japanese dialogue itself is stiff, you’re kind of screwed. Like in Shana.
All these complaints so far are just minor quibbles, though. My Japanese has gotten to the point where I can pick nouns, verbs, adjectives and the like out of a sentence, then determine if anything is missing in a translation, and sometimes if anything is outright wrong. As such, bad/inaccurate translations don’t really bother me if the show’s dialogue is pretty general. What really gets me is when fansubbers plaster shit all over the cartoon I’m watching.
Karaoke effects, overlays, and stupid bullshit get brought up ad nauseam across fansub bitchfests (such as this one) but such complaints bear repeating, since it seems they still haven’t gotten through the skulls of some boneheaded fansub groups. Karaoke effects that are needlessly decorative and complex do not enhance my viewing experience. Handle names and IRC channels plastered all over the opening sequence do not enhance my viewing experience. Using a serifed or rounded font does not enhance my viewing experience. Translation notes carefully explaining the meaning of “ETA” and “debris” do not enhance my viewing experience. These things are distractions. They would distract any other normal person. Just because you have AfterEffects (that is what those cunts use, right?) doesn’t mean you should use every fucking trick it has to offer. It’s like some kid’s first time on Photoshop. All they want to do is make lensflares.
I’m really going to sound like Paul here, but he makes a good point– in a translation of anything, the translator should be totally invisible. I think the odd translation note here and there is fine, but for the most part the translator should not infringe upon the viewer’s viewing experience. One of the worst examples of this infringement is when fansubbers overlay English text over Japanese text. Let’s take Eclipse’s Clannad subs for example. What they’ve been doing lately is carefully Photoshoping over frames with Japanese text, and scribbling English text on top. Clannad takes place in Japan. Why the fuck would Japan have English signs. Just leave the motherfucking show alone you fucking cunts. You’re not only fucking up my viewing experience, but you’re also insulting the guy who painted that background by scribbling the fuck all over it. Jesus, are you guys stupid or something? I feel like I’m watching some show localized by 4kids.
However, I am happy that a lot of groups are doing away with this shit now. gg, even though their taste in anime is absolutely horrible (subbing mainstream crap like Geass and Macross, then dropping Toradora!), does a great job at putting out nice lightweight subs that are just a straight translation with very little in the way of fancy formatting. Same thing with Triad, ADTRW, the newly formed Aero subs. I like m.3.3.w, even if they’re guilty of most of the things I have complained about. However, their approach is very minimal, and their translations are always fucking solid.
So, after all this whiny bitching, what is my picture of the perfect fansub? One of my puppets has explained it before, but I guess I’ll say it for myself– the perfect fansub has a nice, easy to read translation that is localized to the point that it doesn’t omit or change any cultural references present in the dialogue. The font used is a neutral, sans-serifed font; translation notes are delegated to a txt file, or a link to the official site; and staff credits are either not present at all, or just appear on an extra frame at the end. The format is a softsubbed MKV file, which preferably uses the best quality raw available. I do not think this is too much to ask.
Like I said, most of these complaints have become moot, but some modern fansubbers are still missing the point of fansubbing, perhaps because they’re too knee deep in their own dickwaving contests. Fansubbing was, and still is about allowing people not versed in Japanese the opportunity to watch what’s new and cool in Japan. Fansubbing is not about Photoshopping over a highschool’s name plate.
I really hate raging. Usually when I rage, it’s just for laughs, but this shit really bugs me. I guess I’ll get on blogs next. Won’t that be fun!
I think you’re supersticious about something.
BTW, superscticious means something that brengs bad ruck.
As dumb as they are, sign overlays will never go away, since most people love them. Is it that hard to leave the video alone and put a subtitle at the bottom?
Softsubs + Mplayer means you don’t have to worry about the font… You provide your own. I do have to agree with you though… Fansubbers of today (even some of the better groups) would fail freshman English. And God forbid you ask them to diagram a sentence (hell, I wouldn’t want to diagram some of the sentences they come up with…) That being said, high quality high definition raws + good softsubs + MKV is a beautiful thing.
And After Effects fags need to get a life… Seriously, who has time to edit stuff like that? Go get a job, make some money, study your homework for a change…
I agree 100%.
I’ve done some Japanese translations, and it’s NOT THAT HARD to make it sound natural in English. These shitty translations really piss me off.
Also, I just HATE it when they give notes on things like ETA. If you really think your viewers are so stupid that they won’t know what it means, spell it out in the main subtitles.
I’m just glad I know enough Japanese that I can just ignore a bad translation and still understand most of what’s being said.
Well Paul does have a good point, there should be some sort of a guideline for these morons. Either they are lacking common sense or there just plain lazy bastards. Like the scenes in Chaos;Head where he talking in irc chat, lines blinking on and off the bottom of the screen. fuck no bitch.
But I guess in the end all we can do is be thankful to those who get it right and avoid certain groups.
Live and learn my friend, Live and learn.
I just hate TN notes period. The only time TN notes should come into a scene is if they’re trying to explain something that otherwise wouldn’t make sense in normal english; example: in Gundam MS IGLOO, the Lt. at first says “I don’t know if I’m ready…” using boku and then goes back and corrects himself using ore. And even then all it needs is a simple note or maybe a little asterisk pointer to a note at the end of the episode.
In terms of softsubs/hardsubs, I don’t mind either way since from the encoder standpoint there’s advantages to go either way, and so long as they use a neutral font like you said, it doesn’t bug me at all at least.
I stopped watching fansubs after BOST offered Strike Witches. I was like, “Welp, fansubs are over.”
It’s hard to deal with fansubs if I actually try to listen and not read. After four semesters of Japanese in college, I pick up a good amount. It’s an interruption to my viewing when I have that unintentional thought, “The hell? That’s not what he/she just said.”
But my japanese still isn’t good enough to watch most anime without them. I should grab my old college books and study up again. I may not be able to speak it for crap, but I can read and understand fairly well.
Epic translator notes will teach you two things: 1- the group is shit drop it. 2- make you laugh and even make hilarious screenshots.
I do agree karaoke should go away. Not that I don’t like it, but I can do without it after the first two episodes, unless it gets new lyrics or sth.
Even so, I suggest we show patience to the greenhorns. With luck, they will abandon flashy effects and improve on what really counts. And if not… well we don’t need to download their release.
I would entirely agree on your idea of a perfect sub, if only my laptop could actually handle those beautiful HD MKV’s, It jitters and lags like heck D:
A-MEN! Preach it, brother!
…ahem… this is why I will gladly wait 2 years and pay $5 an episode for the R1 release of a show rather than watch a zero-day speedsub for free.
I totally agree, except for the part about staff credits needing to be cut. In an ideal world, the reward for a fansubber would be knowing that people preferred the quality of their translation over that of other groups, but in the reality we live in I don’t mind if the people whose hard work I am enjoying want to include their names in the OP. Huge and garish “XXX presents” logos are a different story however.
I have 2 things to say.
1.If you understand Japanese then there is no need to read fansubs.
2.If you don’t and use fansubs but bitch about them…you’re very fucking sad, not only they help you fill in the holes and let you learn the language trough THEIR mistakes, but you must come of as a moron and do the facedesk or facepalm shit AND post about how fucking stupid those people are.
3.Go back to watching anime and drawing your damn comic, I miss the comic.
4. yes I lied about how many things I had to say.
I updated on election day and updated again just now.
Awesome post. I agree with all of your points 100%. My view of the perfect fansub fits in line with yours.
“Clannad takes place in Japan. Why the fuck would Japan have English signs. Just leave the motherfucking show alone you fucking cunts.”
YES. THIS.
With regards to signs, there are some shows where the leaving-the-Japanese-text-alone doesn’t work. A prime example is Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei… or indeed anything by those crazy artsy-fartsy dudes at SHAFT. Yeah, most of the signs are throwaway flashes of text anyway, but it’s still annoying to not be able to get the subtle jokes just because someone decided it would be much more elegant to put the translations into a separate text file or into a still frame at the end of the vid.
Even within shows that don’t need that level of editing, there are still moments where important signs don’t have the space needed to have the translation put alongside the Japanese text (which is my preferred solution, by the way). In such cases, I think that it should be forgivable if the group chooses to replace the sign with a translated version, but only for those specific cases.
I advocated and still advocate having staff handles in the credits. This is not a matter of getting recognised or what-not. It’s a matter of making it slightly more difficult for HK DVD pirates to use fansub scripts as the basis for their crap. I agree that in the age of softsubs this is largely something that can be trivially removed with mkvExtract, Notepad and maybe 2 minutes of scrolling through the .ass file, but to me it’s the principle of the thing that matters.
I used to be a karaoke timer (and no, I didn’t use Adobe Premiere or whatever. That’s the easy way for n00bs. Real men use complicated .ass commands and complex timing!) so I’m slightly biased in having karaoke effects around. I do agree that they should not be obtrusive and in the age of softsubs I think that karaoke should be put in an optional stream instead of the default. That would be a good and balanced solution that should appeal to everyone.
I do agree with the bit about translation notes. A good translator-editor team would find a way to actually translate the phrase in question without it requiring a translation note on-screen.
I find that a major portion of translation notes tends to deal with technical jargon or particularly specific cultural references (eg. to a TV show or artist or whatever); for the most part, these don’t require translation notes on-screen at all, because not every viewer in Japan would get it anyway and they’re largely nods to those who would. If you are part of the demographic that, say, Lucky Star is aimed at and you don’t get a particular reference, then look it up yourself. You only need to do it once and you’d get it for every other show that makes the same reference, hence removing the need to have notes that insult you by telling you something that you’ve already known for ages.
Oh, yes, one more thing.
In the age of softsubs, minor errors aren’t that much of an issue anymore. If I find a line that annoys me in a fansub, I just extract the .ass, edit it and remux it. Problem solved. Of course, it’s not an excuse for fansubbers to be lax about quality checks (I’m looking at you, gg and Chihiro), but it’s an option for those of us who demand things to be done properly.
@chibikit0, why would I want to spend my time correcting an error in anything that I’m only watching once, maybe twice? And while I agree with you on not having to delve into superfluous files for translation notes, I completely disagree with you on inserting staff credits anywhere in releases, as it’s a slap in the face to the people who actually did the work to get in those credits in the first place. That’s like a frame shop putting a signature at the bottom of a painting, and it’s not going to do anything to stop HK bootleggers.
And karaoke makes me rage too. I mean who thinks it’s really a good idea to superimpose anything on the OP/ED in EVERY episode? Can’t subbers leave me one or two that I could use for screenshots or to just enjoy without a bunch of extra text all over the top and bottom of it? And really, I can’t imagine the people who like karaoke subbing outnumber the people who hate it or are indifferent to it, thus making it an inefficient use of time and energy.
Lastly, I like hardsubs, just because they’re always a lot easier to convert to MP4 format for my PSP. Of course if I found a more reliable way to convert MKV’s and softsubs, I’d probably like that more.
@shinpachi
> why would I want to spend my time correcting an error in anything that I’m only watching once, maybe twice?
Certainly not for things that you’d watch once or twice, but for things that you might want to watch again or share with someone else? That’s my reason for making the minor corrections myself, even if I’m going to buy that particular show.
That and I’m somewhat obsessive-compulsive about such things.
> it’s a slap in the face to the people who actually did the work to get in those credits in the first place.
Depends on how you do it. While I’m fine with groups that put their staffer names in the credits, I’m not fine if they do it without *also* putting in the translations for the studio staff. We wouldn’t be watching a fansubbed show if the fansubbers didn’t sub it, same as we wouldn’t be watching it if the show wasn’t made at all. How much work in comparison they did doesn’t matter (even the tea lady gets a mention in movie credits, after all). Credit should be given where credit is due and fansubbers have earned that little conceit, in my opinion.
Of course, your mileage may vary.
And note that I agree that in the age of softsubs, credits aren’t much of a defence against script-stealers.
> I can’t imagine the people who like karaoke subbing outnumber the people who hate it or are indifferent to it, thus making it an inefficient use of time and energy.
Neither do the people who hate karaoke outnumber the amount of people who love it or are indifferent to it. Like I said, the best solution is to make it an optional stream in a soft-subbed file and to release an optional karaoke-only patch for hardsubs; that way, the people who hate or love karaoke can get what they want and the indifferent people get a bonus if they feel like mangling a particularly catchy op in the privacy of their bedrooms.
> Of course if I found a more reliable way to convert MKV’s and softsubs, I’d probably like that more.
Not sure if it will work, but consider TVersity. Yes, it’s a media streaming programme for the PSP, PS3 and 360, but it does allow you to copy a converted version to the PS3. Maybe it will let you do the same for the PSP too.
Well while I almost completely agree with you…
“Clannad takes place in Japan. Why the fuck would Japan have English signs. Just leave the motherfucking show alone you fucking cunts. You’re not only fucking up my viewing experience, but you’re also insulting the guy who painted that background by scribbling the fuck all over it. Jesus, are you guys stupid or something? I feel like I’m watching some show localized by 4kids.”
Just because the story takes place in Japan doesn’t mean the viewers (those who watch fansubs) can understand the fucking Chinese characters so there’s a need of translation. But I’ll agree, sometimes using AFX is overkill. However, if it’s done properly there’s no need to complain. Especially since you can’t read it. And if you think of fansubs as some kind of resource to learn Japanese you are fucking wrong.
At risk of sounding like a fansubber reading your blog, here I am posting as one. My attention was caught on this:
I’m glad to see you saw my Toradora (which got dropped by gg and picked up by my scary stalkers that created qq), but then I noticed this:
I know this might be a fun little meme to do already, but by just comparing my own scripts to the crap Aero churns out, I have no idea what you’re getting at by putting Triad/ADTRW up against Aero. They really aren’t all that good. Are you honestly not weirded out by the lack of sentence flow? How they miss crucial things all the time?
I like to believe your blog has some credit out there, heero, so I’d like to hear what your take is on this, why you put old school, real good fansubbers up against former “anonymous speed subbers” with no sense of quality, other than being first.
>>Just because the story takes place in Japan doesn’t mean the viewers (those who watch fansubs) can understand the fucking Chinese characters so there’s a need of translation.
Did I say this? I said I don’t want any overlays. Just do what legal DVDs do– put a small subtitle at the top or bottom of the screen. That’s how you’re supposed to do it.
>>And if you think of fansubs as some kind of resource to learn Japanese you are fucking wrong.
When did I say this???
>>ilifin
Maybe it’s just because my standards have been shot down so low, but Aero seems passable to me. They do complete softsubs (no fucking hardcoded karaoke) and their subs seem readable. Yeah, they’re not good, but they’re workable. They’re a lot better than, say, Dark Rebirth or THE JELLY CAPTION TEAM.
>>why you put old school, real good fansubbers up against former “anonymous speed subbers” with no sense of quality, other than being first.
I don’t take into account the history of fansubbing groups or who’s behind them since I honestly don’t give a fuck. So that’s why I put old schoolers against anon speed subbers. Because I don’t know who the oldschoolers are, nor do I know who the speed subbers are. I just don’t care. All I care about is the end result.
Well OK, so – you rant about how you hate how they plaster the episode with hardsubbed shit and add their overly obtrusive karaoke all over the opening and endings without letting you remove them. Yet, you don’t care about what the actual “real” content ends up like?
I’ll give it to you though, Aero gets the gist of the content of the episode relayed over if you’re extremely anxious to just get the episode seen. If you are however interested in actually understanding what’s going on and not feel weirded out by how the conversations just don’t flow – and also not get tons of things mistranslated – I wouldn’t recommend getting theirs, ever.
I was going to make this a lot longer by comparing qq to Aero on episode 6 – but my head hurt even before the opening began. When you’re already able to – after 1 minuter – to translate “ikimasu” to “We’re going.” in a context when you’re about to start doing something, I can’t give Aero’s TL any credit.
Well I don’t care much about a super accurate translation if it’s a show I don’t really care about. Like, say Ga-Rei-ZERO and Jigoku Shoujo. Both are ok shows but I don’t especially care about how well they’re translated. I like Toradora a bit more so I wait out for better subs.
As far as putting out an ok looking product with a workable translation, I think Aero is fine.
Basically inaccurate speedsubbing doesn’t bother me. When you get one of those you know what you’re in for, and these groups know it. What pisses me off is dickwaving and shit.
edit: It breaks down like this: a bad translation is simply a matter of lacking knowledge. Covering the original work with extraneous crap is just not practical and stupid.