Don’t get mad at your Japanese cartoon because it’s made in Japan, man
October 3rd, 2009 at 01:16:05 by wah
Ok, guys, listen. There’s these people out there, ok? These people operate under an assumption that Bakemonogatari–OTAKU HIPSTER show of the year–is difficult to understand. Further more, these people. You know, these people? They think the people who like this TV anime get a smug sense of satisfaction out of understanding it. I don’t know about you guys, but Bakemonogatari doesn’t strike me as something difficult to understand. In fact, I can understand the show near perfectly without even needing subtitles. What I imagine the issue is, and why these poor souls are finding the show so difficult to understand, is that, quite bluntly, Bakemonogatari is Japanese As Fuck. You know that right from the title which is a mixture of 化け物 (bakemono, monster/ghost) and 物語 (monogatari, story.)
This is also the case with a whole host of other fine animated programs from the great nation of Japan. I mean, it shouldn’t be surprising. These shows aren’t made for you–they’re made for Japanese people. As such, shows just may be steeped in varying degrees of cultural quirks you may not understand! When Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei makes a joke about the Chuo Line being late again, that’s funny. Oh, but not to you. You haven’t ever taken Chuo Line, have you? When the first arc of Bakemonogatari revolves around the fact that omoi can be read as both 重い (heavy) or 思い (feelings), that’s easy to understand, and a bit clever. Oh, but you don’t get it–you’ve never studied Japanese. But you know, it’s ok.
The issue here is that people are scared of what they don’t understand. Even offended. This isn’t the show’s fault–it’s yours. No, it’s not your fault for not being Japanese. I’m not feeling that unreasonable today. It’s your fault for being close minded. It’s your fault for expecting a foreign piece of media–made for Japanese people–to be something you can totally and completely digest. It’s your fault for not opening your mind to a culture that’s different from your own. All of the jokes in Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei are hilarious, but they’re not written for you. Every story, as well as all the dialogue in Bakemonogatari is very straightforward, you just need to be Japanese to fully get it. Imagine you’re a Japanese person watching Seinfeld. Or Monty Python. It’s more or less the same kind of thing. But you know, I’ve actually spoken to Japanese people who love Monty Python, though they admit it takes some effort to get sometimes.
I should note that this issue shouldn’t be something to hold you back. Isn’t part of the draw of anime its Japanese roots? Don’t we enjoy scenes of characters airing out their futon, or talking about kanji radicals? Isn’t it new, exciting and different from the life you’re living now? Anime requires an open mind, especially if you’re not Japanese. And it’s not because all Japanese cartoons are Choujin Densetsu Urotsukidouji. It’s because–as I keep stressing like fuck in this post–this stuff comes from a culture alien to your own. When you watch anime–even anime like Cowboy Bebop or Baccano–you’re getting a Japanese perspective of the world. You’re peering into their culture. Don’t get mad at things you find difficult to understand. Embrace them. Think about why Sleggar Law is a cocky asshole, don’t get offended by it.
I can’t say this is the only reason, but I suspect this is one of the reasons why certain shows can attract a lot of vitriol (especially from the under-educated masses of 4chan) from people, especially when they’re popular. It’s simply a product of lack of understanding on a very basic level. I’m not saying shows can’t be bad–oh, they can be–but often times when I read criticisms of shows like Bakemonogatari, Zetsubou Sensei, K-ON!, Lucky Star, Pani Poni Dash and the like, what it often boils down to is “I don’t get it, and I’m mad because I don’t get it.” And you know, its ok that you don’t get it. You can choose to open your mind or keep it closed–whatever, I don’t give a fuck–but you not getting the show isn’t the show’s fault. It’s all yours, man.
And bringing this all back to Bakemonogatari, its visual style is what Shinbo has been putting out since Yu Yu Hakusho. If you’re just noticing that he likes crazy colours and close ups on eyes now, you sure haven’t been watching anime from the past 20 years, have you?
October 3rd, 2009 at 01:26:58
Oh, so the reason why I don’t like Kanokon is because the show’s too Japanese for me. Thanks for the clarification.
October 3rd, 2009 at 01:37:20
Well said.
October 3rd, 2009 at 02:00:50
I said the same thing about the “purity” rage event that took place over Clannad. People in the West easily forget that cultural norms can be different. (Who would imagine it? It’s only the other side of the world.)
October 3rd, 2009 at 02:02:34
Wait, did I type Clannad? I meant Kannagi, when they suggest Nagi isn’t a virgin. Fingers, what are you doing?
October 3rd, 2009 at 02:11:36
>> Oh, so the reason why I don’t like Kanokon is because the show’s too Japanese for me.
Yes.
October 3rd, 2009 at 02:12:57
You were born on the wrong side of the globe. As someone born on the right side of the globe, you are right as fuck, and I agree. Thanks for making sense!
October 3rd, 2009 at 02:14:02
>> Fingers, what are you doing?
Clearly, they’re doing something related to Clannad, and the lack of virginity. *WINK WINK*
October 3rd, 2009 at 02:25:12
If you ask me, all this really predicates on a much more fundamental flaw in thinking: “if I don’t like something, there must be something wrong with that thing” (which could be completed by “because there can’t possibly be something wrong with me”). The focus is always on finding fault instead of on attempting to understand the differences and the value in that. Of course, when you’re talking about entertainment, people can’t necessarily be expected to enjoy everything, and some don’t want to put in the effort to try to understand things that they can’t immediately grasp and appreciate. There’s nothing necessarily wrong with that. But rather than having the grace, wisdom, and “centeredness” to admit that “this just isn’t for me”, there seems to be this compelling need to explain away all the reasons why the object’s “flaws” are the true cause, often to the point of desperation and absurdity.
On the flip side, I suppose one could argue that people who are fans of something can tend to believe a bit too strongly in the goodness of “the thing”, and whenever criticisms are raised tend to assume that there must be something wrong with the person offering the criticism (because, it might follow, “there can’t be anything wrong with the thing that I like, because I like it and there’s nothing wrong with me!”). So this opposite extreme is equally self-gratifying. And the constant battle between these two self-centered points of view is what, ultimately defines most of the disagreements people get into about anime.
Of course, in the end, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Understanding and appreciating a thing is about both the viewer and the object being viewed, and what defines our preferences are the points that connect the object’s qualities and our own personality. If someone doesn’t like something, it’s more that that thing isn’t compatible with their current tastes, and that could be due to all sorts of perfectly-valid cultural reasons. The only way to expand your palate, though, is through a genuine desire to experiment with and understand new things. And then, even if you still don’t like that thing, the fact that other people do like it doesn’t necessarily mean there’s anything wrong with those people; they just have different tastes that aren’t so put-off by whatever it is you find so distasteful. There’s nothing better or worse about any given person’s personal tastes.
Anyway, this all seems rather obvious (and it sure isn’t the first time it’s been pointed out), but somehow it always seems to come back to it anyway. At the end of the day, it seems that many people are simply more interested in opining about things than in genuinely understanding them, and that reflects in the sort of commentary we generally read (high on reaction, low on insight). But if that’s what people want out of their anime entertainment experience, then more power to them, I suppose…
October 3rd, 2009 at 02:26:59
Now that you’ve explained this, a lot of criticism I’ve read about certain series* makes sense from this perspective. While you’re probably a bit more… caustic than I would have been, you make a very good point.
I find it curious that you mentioned that Lucky Star gets hit by the “I don’t get it, and I’m mad because I don’t get it” treatment though. My knowledge of Japanese culture extends about as far as what Wikipedia and TV Tropes say, and I don’t find it particularly confusing. I don’t get half the references or jokes, but re-watching eps and getting things I didn’t last time around is half the fun (the other half is Tsukasa).
Then again, my guiding principle is that people are idiots until they prove otherwise. Which they rarely do.
* Fucking irregular plural noun.
October 3rd, 2009 at 02:46:22
“All of the jokes in Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei are hilarious”
Well, for a retard – yes, that show is funny. Not so much for people with sufficient intelligence.
October 3rd, 2009 at 02:49:02
>> said the same thing about the “purity” rage event that took place over Clannad. People in the West easily forget that cultural norms can be different. (Who would imagine it? It’s only the other side of the world.)
There’s a difference between “oh, that’s just their culture” and batshit insanity/stupidity. Getting enraged over a fictional character (that you can’t even hook up with in any way) not being a virgin falls well into that latter category.
It’s like when I was told that in Egypt, driving with your headlights on at night is considered rude. It just crosses over the line at that point, y’know?
October 3rd, 2009 at 03:11:51
Great comments so far (and one expected stupid one) but just so we’re clear–that whole Nagi virgin thing was a gigantic 2ch troll. It was all a joke. Mostly.
October 3rd, 2009 at 04:00:58
Your entire argument falls flat on its face because you conveniently choose to ignore that “Japanese people” and “otaku who watch anime” are not one and the same. One is merely a subset of the other, and neither is representative of the other. The Seinfeld comparison has no merit, because it’s designed to have wide appeal. Most anime are not. Do you really think the average person on one of Tokyo’s streets (outside of Akihabara) is really going to get all the obscure anime references in SZS? They even say as much in ep 11 of Bakemonogatari, which kinda indicates that these shows don’t hinge on the viewer understanding every single pop culture reference. And neither does Family Guy, to take a Western example, for that matter.
And, as for moritheil’s Kannagi comparison, well, I guess the Akihabara vendors who trolled raging otaku by putting Kannagi products in their “used items” bins were also ignorant gaijin who can’t understanding the beauty and purity of superior Japanese culture. Sorry, but there’s no defending this particularly pathetic example of otaku groupthink. Most Japanese people were probably just as quick to lament the sadness of people starting boycotts and internet protests over the virginity of a fictional character as anyone else in the world. This isn’t explained away by a nation’s culture and attitudes towards prudence, this is just a bunch of sad, pathetic individuals making a big deal for a sad, pathetic cause.
Anime shouldn’t be allowed to hide behind Japan’s culture from criticisms that they’re not funny, because for the most part, they’re borne out of otaku culture, which is something else entirely. From a Western anime fan’s perspective, our view of Japanese culture comes mostly through anime, which arguably makes us more directly plugged into the otaku culture than our indirect view of Japanese culture. This close-minded/open-minded concept has nothing to do with culture in most cases… or, if it does, only to a mild extent. Are Yamamoto Yutaka’s criticisms of Shinbo’s style also due to cultural dissonance?
October 3rd, 2009 at 04:13:16
Preach it.
When people don’t understand something because they refuse to fucking google it, that makes them retarded. It makes them clinically vegetable to then get angry over a lack of comprehension.
Obviously I would posit that criticizing a series on grounds that it references shit is unwarranted unless it just doesn’t do it very well. Obviously criticizing a show based on poor execution of jokes, references, etc. , shitty and/or uninspired animation and/or art, poor voice acting, poor music choice, etc is more than valid, I mean you can point to it and say “SEE THIS? THIS IS WHY THIS SHOW KILLS PUPPIES”.
Also, HOW CAN SOMEONE NOT GET BAKEMONOGATARI? I’m not even remotely hiphoppity with Japanese culture (at least I’m pretty sure I’m not) and it makes sense to me given subs…I mean, they are hardly trying to obfuscate things.
I’m going to coax myself away from depression and dark thoughts brought forth by the revelation that people are even more retarded than I thought they were by envisioning said retards grunting and slamming their forehead on the keyboard to type anything. -__-
October 3rd, 2009 at 04:21:22
Your entire argument falls flat on its face because you conveniently choose to ignore that “American people” and “fans who watch cartoons” are not one and the same. One is merely a subset of the other, and neither is representative of the other. The Naruto comparison has no merit, because it’s designed to have wide appeal. Most anime are not. Do you really think the average person on one of New York’s streets (outside of Manhattan) is really going to get all the obscure American references in Family Guy? They even say as much in all of their episodes, which kinda indicates that these shows don’t hinge on the viewer understanding every single pop culture reference. And neither does SZS, to take a Japanese example, for that matter.
Cartoons shouldn’t be allowed to hide behind America’s culture from criticisms that they’re not funny, because for the most part, they’re borne out of American culture, which is something else entirely. From a Japanese cartoon fan’s perspective, their view of American culture comes mostly through cartoons, which arguably makes them less directly plugged into the cartoon culture than our direct view of cartoon culture. This close-minded/open-minded concept has nothing to do with culture in most cases… or, if it does, only to a mild extent. Are Trey Parker and Matt Stone’s criticisms of Family Guy’s style also due to cultural dissonance?
October 3rd, 2009 at 04:40:10
WAH, you’ve shaken loose a lot of trolls out of the woodwork. I’m torn between facepalming and congratulating you.
October 3rd, 2009 at 04:58:27
Wait, Shinbo did YU YU HAKUSHO?
HOLY SHIT.
*slowpoke.jpg.
October 3rd, 2009 at 05:09:18
@owen: a subcultural in-joke is different than an entire show as a joke based on satiring dominant cultural themes, which is why I suppose The Simpsons has been so successful – it lampoons “The American Family” while referencing something all people living in American [should be able to get], politics. The fact that retarded politics might be viewed as a uniquely American thing is misleading – it has to do more with objective geopolitical definitions of people, not ambiguous, subjective cultural definitions that lead to overlapping and category fail.
or you could say that the delivery of a joke is just as important as its content….but is there a difference?
you (will not) understand &c.
October 3rd, 2009 at 05:21:31
@Owen S
Exactly. Door swings both ways. This is a taste issue, in this case, not a cultural issue. It’s only a cultural issue because wah wants to use an extremely broad brush to paint Japanese taste as a unified concept and then use a fictitious collective opinion of an entire nation to quash criticism. It ignores the fact that there are also people who don’t like SZS or Lucky Star or whatever in Japan, and the range of opinions are just as varied, and the reasons for those opinions reasonably similar, on both sides of the Pacific.
October 3rd, 2009 at 05:24:35
Can taste and culture truly be extracted from one another?
October 3rd, 2009 at 05:29:33
日本がすげー！！
October 3rd, 2009 at 05:31:32
More like it works under mutual understanding. Culture is created from people’s taste, and taste is influenced and created through the culture in which it is based upon. However, preference is not defined by culture alone, nor does criticism of culture by defined by taste. Isn’t that the reason censorship was born? I know it’s not a good an example, but the clashing ideas between the two should create such.
October 3rd, 2009 at 05:31:37
WAH, you’re right as fuck, and I salute you for this.
October 3rd, 2009 at 05:34:35
I… don’t know. I’m failing to see how this argument applies to Bakemonogatari. Everything that strikes me as being particularly japanese seems largely extraneous to what makes the show entertaining. It’s essentially a show about people snarking at each-other for extended periods of time – the part of the show that strikes be as being distinctly Japanese (which is rarely anything more than the explanation of the afflicting spirit) is really nothing more than an excuse to set-up these situations. There’s nothing exceptionally culturally alien about what tends to happen once they get into those situations.
I mean, it’s not hard to think of what could be considered, if not especially valid criticisms, than certainly valid reasons for not liking Bakemonogatari. Some people simply don’t like shows which revolve almost entirely around long stretches of dialogue There’s also the whole “No real person would talk like that” thing, which really, really bugs some people (Bakemono’s suddenly striking me as being a lot like Clerks for some reason ^^;).
The argument stands for Zetsubou, though.
October 3rd, 2009 at 06:25:59
I can understand what you mean, but anime shows these days are based more off otaku culture; so even “normal” Japanese people sometimes cannot even begin to “get” the fascination there is with such material. Of course all the superficial crap like, having a train line be late or the interchangeable meaning between a selection of syllables dependent on kanji is something that most Japanese would understand. I wouldn’t say anime is made for Japanese in general…it’s made for Japanese KIDS and Japanese OTAKU, not that there isn’t some casual anime watchers in Japan–LOL~!!!! Anime is always a niche thing, and within it it just gets more niche.. 0A0 lol
October 3rd, 2009 at 07:04:30
wah, stop being intellectually lazy and either start trolling intelligently or post pics.
But seriously, Shinbo did Yu Yu Hakusho?
October 3rd, 2009 at 08:31:33
“Shinbō participated with Studio Pierrot in 1990 as a unit director in Karakuri Kengouden Musashi Road and started to provide storyboards for YuYu Hakusho in 1992.”
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akiyuki_Shinbo
October 3rd, 2009 at 08:32:47
PS: Irony of not doing 5 second wiki search in the same post as the one telling wah to not be lazy noted. :D
October 3rd, 2009 at 09:57:56
So I’m fail for only understanding half the jokes in SZS? Great…
Guess I have to quit my job, move to Japan, learn Japanese, marry a Japanese woman, have 3 kids and then maybe I’ll get it all.
Seriously WAH, this post stinks of elitist jerkism.
End comment, Bakemonogatari is like Seinfeld. People love it or hate it. Pretty much like Genshiken.
October 3rd, 2009 at 10:15:44
moritheil: I aim to entertain. Always.
October 3rd, 2009 at 11:27:04
[...] Yes, this one’s decidedly LESS interesting after asking the whole “Shinbo did THIS?̶… And I pulled out unintentional irony, [...]
October 3rd, 2009 at 12:24:52
@Owen S: No, Matt Stone and Trey Parker hate Family Guy because it’s more famous and slightly less offensive. It takes a special kind of hate to mock Family Guy using the puerile humour Matt Stone and Trey Parker seem to favour in South Park.
October 3rd, 2009 at 12:27:17
@ Pebkac:
Actually, the show that kills puppies is Elfen Lied.
October 3rd, 2009 at 13:13:06
I did study abroad and an exchange program in Germany one summer. The Germans were confused as all hell as to why we were laughing at Seinfeld.
(Jokes about the Chou line in SZS are like jokes about the maple syrup smell in 30 Rock.)
October 3rd, 2009 at 13:59:08
So you went to Japan, bummed off for a few weeks or so, and think you’re one of them slant-eyed fuckers already? Way to go wah.
For starters, the “Bakemonogatari” wordplay is equally applicable in English – Gho st ory, get it?
Maybe you’re right about the close mindedness part though. After all, it takes a REAL open-minded, revisionist historian to think that Pearl Harbor was the fault of Americans, right? Of course its right, since the insanely-open-minded-japanese-centered SZS preaches it!
This is not a profound lack of understanding. It is a profound lack of sensitivity, intelligence and common sense on the part of the entire fucking show of SZS, which I may add, is full of vitrol. Rather than reflect daily drudgery of Japanese life, SZS merely acts as a channel for Japanese grievances to be aired in public television. While there may be an Freudian perspective behind this mess, (what with repression of the Id and all that), it is clear that while SZS may represent Japanese interests, we are not Japanese and we do not have Japanese interests at heart, and thankfully so, else we would go around trumpeting Pearl Harbor, Nanjing, general Sinophobia and the like.
Of course, I exaggerate. The majority of Japanese are largely cognizant of their past, and are willing to come to terms with it. Nevertheless, wah, by asserting that SZS reflects Japanese intentions, and are made for Japanese people, you are equally guilty of reducing the entire Japanese population to a few generalizations made by the show.
People like you make me feel guilty for masturbating to little girls.
This is why I prefer Dan.
/troll
October 3rd, 2009 at 14:12:18
The “otaku and normal Japanese people are different” argument is flawed since I’m not talking about the otaku-culture referencing aspects of these shows at all–simply their cultural quirks. Not all Japanese are otaku, but all (Japanese) otaku are Japanese people.
>>anonymous
You’ve never spoken to someone who’s not white in your life, have you? I bet you live in some nice, white picket fence suburb, right? Does your mom drive you to soccer practice with all your white friends? Do you come back for cookies and juice later?
SZS is a cynical and dark comedy making fun of Japanese culture, and is not afraid to go “there.” I thought the Pearl Harbor quip was hilarious, quite frankly. Kumeta knows how ridiculous he’s being, and if you can’t read that, you’re just a dumbass. It’s like people who dont get Colony Drop.
And while it wasn’t a long period of time, I lived in Japan for half a year. I don’t claim to know how the whole system works–heck, most of what I did was contained to Saitama and Tokyo–but you learn a lot, and what I learned the most is that a lot of American anime fandom is made of close minded jerkfaces, especially those who hail from 4chan.
Now, go back to watching American football on your ugly green couch with the stuffing coming out of it, while drinking that piss Americans call beer.
Edit: Oh, excuse me. It would seem you’re from Singapore. Why do you care so much about a joke about Pearl Harbor? You’re not American. It’s none of your business to care about that. Do you just enjoy sucking on the collective American cock?
October 3rd, 2009 at 14:30:01
@jpmeyer:
Heck, my sister is confused as hell as to why people find Seinfeld funny, and I think I can safely argue that she and I are culturally similar.
If our personalities affect our tastes, then our culture is just one of the factors that influences that. Some of it is, for as much as it can be seen, just personal. So while some of the cultural references in shows may be unique to their home culture, the sense that appreciates that sort of humour isn’t inherently cultural. So, to the OP, while the humour in some shows maybe Japanese in nature, you don’t necessarily have to be Japanese to get it. At the same time, if you *don’t* get it, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with the show either; it might just not align with your tastes, and one of the reasons for that could be cultural.
So both arguments have some merit, but it’s clearly much more sensational to keep arguing the two extremes.
October 3rd, 2009 at 23:17:06
I think relentlessflame hit the nail on the head just there. If you don’t understand part of a show, it’s probably not the fault of the show when you don’t lie within the target audience anyway. Of course, poor execution has killed many a joke, but just because you don’t get it doesn’t mean it’s broken.
As wah noted above, I think some commenters are focusing on the otaku elements of a show rather than the general Japanese-culture-related elements. I’m not familiar with a few of the shows in the OP but I’m willing to bet there are things the casual Japanese viewer doesn’t get; but these are the things only otaku would understand. Similarly, a Western otaku might get some of the more obscure references but might not understand the kanji-based wordplay (I certainly don’t, unless it’s incredibly obvious).
P.S. I am also confused as to why people find Seinfeld funny.
P.P.S. Owen S’ word-switch post above was brilliant.
October 3rd, 2009 at 23:21:39
P.P.P.S. http://twitter.com/wildarmsheero/status/4572994763 <– The discerning reader may need to focus on the key point's wah is making and not the format in which they are presented. Although you're missing out on half the fun（￣ー￣）
October 4th, 2009 at 00:11:16
>>all (Japanese) otaku are Japanese people.
Yeah. What an insightful nugget of wisdom. And while we’re all playing Socrates here, might as well add that all (iron) pans are made out of iron.
>>You’re not American. It’s none of your business to care about that
And you’re not Japanese either. Your point?
>>SZS is a cynical and dark comedy making fun of Japanese culture, and is not afraid to go “there.”
Not being afraid to deny the holocaust doesn’t make Ahmadinejad any less of an asshole either. There’s quite an obvious difference in being satrical and being patently provocative.
>>dark comedy
Right. You haven’t seen many plays, haven’t you?
>> quite frankly. Kumeta knows how ridiculous he’s being, and if you can’t read that, you’re just a dumbass.
Don’t think so, tim. He probably made more sharp snipes at China and displayed profound xenophobia then what koizumi ever did during his entire term in office. If you can’t read that, you’re not only a dumbass, you’re suffering from denial.
And I suppose you know kumeta personally, then?
>> Do you just enjoy sucking on the collective American cock?
Sure is pot calling the kettle black around here. Do you just enjoy sucking on the collective Japanese (micro)cock?
>>Now, go back to watching American football on your ugly green couch with the stuffing coming out of it, while drinking that piss Americans call beer.
>> close minded jerkfaces
Seems like you’re pretty closeminded yourself, generalizing the entire white population of america. Can I call you jerkface, then?
>> most of what I did was contained to Saitama and Tokyo–but you learn a lot,
You know, I went to Pyongyang last year for a guided tour for around a month, visiting factories and all that (I’m a chemical engineer, take that you liberal arts fucks). There were apartment complexes and all, and every seemed well fed. But guess what? I wasn’t stupid enough to say that I understood the North Koreans entirely.
Maybe you could go over to some war memorial in China to see why there is so much ambivalence towards the Japanese – the Nanjing massacre one is quite good, in addition to the heilongjiang one. You learn a lot.
>> especially those who hail from 4chan.
We are. So what? Want to do something about it?
>>Oh, excuse me. It would seem you’re from Singapore. Why do you care so much about a joke about Pearl Harbor?
Singapore got invaded by the japanese during world war 2, he had a right to feel uncomfortable at any attempt to rationalize the wrong of Japanese atrocities. Besides, your forefathers died for you so you could be weeaboo by choice, and not by default, so do try to remember that.
Your entire argument is centered on ignoramus assumptions, fallacies and assumptions that you can understand the entire psyche of the Japanese. By doing so, you have essentially doomed your entire argument, as you are neither qualified in sociology, nor have you spent enough time around them.
Please stop being blinded by your blatant bias and stop your troll posts. If you’re trying to prove something, I’m not seeing the point.
October 4th, 2009 at 00:22:39
u mad
October 4th, 2009 at 00:27:43
They see you rollin’
They hatin’, patrollin’
PS – Annubis: WAH is not in fact telling you to move to Japan, marry Japanese, etc. He’s just saying, be aware that sometimes there are reasons why you (or I) don’t get it. You’re really overstating his point, almost as much as Sorrow-kun overstated mine.
October 4th, 2009 at 01:43:22
This was a triumph, wah, a huge success.
October 4th, 2009 at 02:28:36
ahhhhhh and here i was thinking that most us otaku were pasafists i really dont know why everyone is so up in arms about this its just ppls tastes shit man who cares if you dont get jokes who cares if its smug shit i didn’t get alot of jokes in zestubo sensei and i still loved it for its energy and its art and anyway smug really yoyur made at it for being smug id be pritty smug to such good shows it all boils down to taste anyway were otaku and we need to band together not tear apart how else are we gunna get megumi usa to become a real magazine
October 4th, 2009 at 02:46:35
have you considered asking the colonydrop guys for a staff position, wah
October 4th, 2009 at 04:20:05
Nothing to sugoi here folks.
Move along.
Just a bunch of classless trolls flinging poop.
October 4th, 2009 at 04:22:00
[...] guys, listen. There’s these people out there, ok? These people operate under an assumption that Japanese culture is difficult to [...]
October 4th, 2009 at 12:04:13
>>kransom
I think I’m too wap for them
October 4th, 2009 at 12:26:07
I showed my mother and brother Lucky Star and even they thought it was funny. Yeah, some of the jokes are quite otaku specific but there’s various aspects of humor that can transcend all cultures.
October 5th, 2009 at 02:53:10
Three cheers for using motherfucking /capsule/ in a blog post about TV anime, not to mention linking them under “OTAKU HiPSTER”. 中田 and こしこ would be thrilled, I’m sure. www
But seriously, everything said here is pretty much on point. It’s no secret that what isn’t immediately understood will be arbitrarily criticized by most; that’s why most people are largely hostile to anime! Hell, to foreign film as well. What’s ironic about the situation you describe in this post is that most of the English-speaking ‘anibloggers’ who’s actions you deplore likely had to open their minds at some point to get into anime in the first place. Now they’re all part of the fandom, but they still don’t have the open-mindedness to try out new things (not to mention, the intellectual capacity to view things in a different cultural context). Unfortunately, these dolts are in the majority on the internet. But, eh. Over the past several months I too have come to terms with the utter stupidity rampant in the ‘aniblogosphere’. That’s why I don’t really read the stuff anymore!
<cheapshot> As for the angry Singaporean(s?)- I wouldn’t waste my time if I were you. The troll is just prickly over the whole WWII joke because it’s what he was taught to do. Seriously, I don’t see the merit in engaging in intelligent debate with a hypersensitive tool who’s government dispatches riot squads to action-figure protests. </cheapshot>
Good post, wah.
October 5th, 2009 at 12:20:04
>> WAH, you’ve shaken loose a lot of trolls out of the woodwork. I’m torn between facepalming and congratulating you.
Then, how about doing *both*? I propose the invention of “Congratupalming”, the world’s greatest ironic gesture.
>> Can taste and culture truly be extracted from one another?
Yes. But I’m not telling. Trade secret.
——————
There’s one more thing I want to mention about the two shows mentioned by wah:
First, Koji Kumeta, author of Zetsubou Sensei, is an absurdist satirist. That means he makes satire, which makes fun of many aspects of japanese culture and life itself; however, the humour is vibrant and, frankly, hard to understand even for many japanese, thanks to its absurdist twist. His mind works different from normal people, which is one of the required elements of absurd works. He’s made it because he’s managed to combines both absurd and satire in a single body of work (Something that is really damn hard, let me assure you). The Anime is just an extension of that work, brought to new life by Shinbo X SHAFT.
And Bakemonogatari was made by NISIOISIN. Have you ever read NISIOISIN’s works? I have, what little has been translated into English. The guy’s writing style is brilliant, and in his original works (Works not derived from Death Note or xXxHolic), you can tell that he’s a very playful author too: He plays with events, with character names, with words, and even with preconceptions and stereotypes. Bakemonogatari is just a series of games, of words, of preconceptions, of stereotypes, and, of course, stories. Half of these games contain strong Japanese Pop culture elements, which would be hard to understand for the average foreign anime viewer. Unless you’ve had some relatively extensive experience with Japanese pop culture, and Japanese culture in general, I can see why this Anime would be hard. Oh, and there’s also the fact that it’s very “novelistic”, in the sense that it’s structured with a strong literary feeling. It’s easy to see it came from a novel.
All in all, these two works are hard to get, regardless of whether you’re Japanese or American. They’re complex creatures: One, in its juxtaposition of absurd and satire; the other, in its literary storytelling. If you don’t get it, that’s okay. Many people won’t get it. But those of us who do? We’ll be having a party over here. We’re not missing you.
October 6th, 2009 at 09:44:20
[...] 7 On many, many occasions, latest one being here. [...]
October 7th, 2009 at 12:05:50
[...] Trolling Hour: Understanding Can (Not) Be Born WAH’s latest post on the uniquely Japanese parts of anime brings a cavalcade of insistent commentators out of the [...]
October 8th, 2009 at 00:44:17
I was wondering if you would do a post about this. I think the main problem with alot of people is that they don’t realize that when a Japanese media company makes a show it’s generally meant for a Japanese audience not for the rest of the world to steal, sub and mass distribute so obviously the content, jokes and references are meant for Japanese people who understand. And to anon, if you don’t like Wah’s point of view dot come to his site and read his posts. And one more thing on the note of pearl harbour. when pearl harbour was attacked so were quite a few other harbours owned by America, pearl harbour just happened to be the most publicized (only a few hundred people died there and most of the boats were salvaged).
I’m canadian so I get a less slanted version of history than America.(;
October 9th, 2009 at 18:15:39
Then why do I like the show when I’m not Japanese? I don’t think this show is hard to understand; I’m pretty sure this is in my top 5 shows ever. Right up there with House M.D. and 30 Rock. Yes, I also enjoy my television in English.
October 12th, 2009 at 08:50:07
Huh, this sort of reminds me of when I first watched Excel Saga fansubbed. I laughed my ass off at that show back then. Then I saw it again when ADV released it and turned on those little in-show notes, and I was liked, “Oh, yeah. Wow, there was a lot of jokes I missed.” But it didn’t change the fact that I still laughed the first time through without those notes.
Granted, I haven’t seen Bakemonogatari yet, so I can’t be sure if WAH is right in that some fans aren’t enjoying because they feel too split off from the show because of the cultural differences, or because there actually is something wrong with the show itself.
For the most part, I’d rather have animes I don’t quite get because I’m too american than show creators trying to pander to me when their show should be made for Japanese audiences first and foremost. It’s like when some of those JRPG creators started saying they wanted to make games that would appeal more to Western gamers. And I’m over here on the other side of the ocean banging my head against my desk going, “NO, NO, NO, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, NO.”
October 20th, 2009 at 09:25:04
Incidentally, I’ve always held that the idea that shows that are “random” are funny originates from people who watched Excel Saga, and didn’t get the jokes, but laughed anyway. This was then rationalized by thinking that “random” must equal “funny”.
October 22nd, 2009 at 00:35:37
WAHa- I don’t know, I think random humor existed way before Excel Saga came on the scene. I mean, look at Monty Python. And I have yet to see any parody show that isn’t random at least half of the time.